Tucker Carlson is again in Moscow to interview Russian International Minister Sergey Lavrov and discover avenues for a peace deal in Ukraine, which the incoming Trump administration has stated it should pursue. Carlson stated he had additionally tried to interview Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, however was thwarted by the Biden State Division and the US Embassy in Kiev (Gateway reported). In February, Carlson had damaged a taboo in Western Meida by sittting down for an interview with Russian Presdient Vladimir Putin.
We’re again in Moscow. Right here’s why. pic.twitter.com/7FfBhcaIUu
— Tucker Carlson (@TuckerCarlson) December 3, 2024
Talking to Carlson, Lavrov stated that Russia “would really like the have normals relations … with an important nation like the US.”
“President Vladimir Putin repeatedly expressed his respect for the American folks, for the American historical past, for the American achievements on this planet, and we don’t see any cause why Russia and the US can not cooperate for the sake of the universe”, Lavrov stated.
“It isn’t us who began the struggle,” Lavrov claimed. “Putin repeatedly stated that we began the particular navy operation with the intention to finish the struggle which Kiev regime was conducting towards its personal folks within the components of Donbass. And simply in his newest assertion, the President Putin clearly indicated that we’re prepared for any eventuality. However we strongly choose peaceable answer by way of negotiations on the premise of respecting official safety curiosity of Russia, and on the premise of respecting the individuals who dwell in Ukraine, who nonetheless dwell in Ukraine being Russians, and their primary human rights, language rights, non secular rights, have been exterminated by a collection of laws handed by the Ukrainian parliament.”
Russia and the US are “formally not at struggle”, Lavrov stated, however are concerned in what he known as a “hybrid struggle.” He warned towards US nuclear escalation and NATO indications that NATO could strike first “ecause the assault is the perfect protection.” Pentagon leaders like US Strategic Command Plans and Coverage Director Rear Admiral Thomas Buchanan, had floated the “eventuality of trade of restricted nuclear strikes”, Lavrov warned.
“This type of threats are actually worrying,” Lavrov stated.
Requested whether or not it could be potential to carry Russia right into a Western bloc, Lavrov stated “I don’t suppose so”, noting that President Putin believed “that every one makes an attempt to be on equal phrases with the West have failed.”
Watch and skim all the interview right here:
Russia’s longtime overseas minister describes the struggle with the US and finish it.
(0:00) Is the US at Battle With Russia?
(12:56) Russia’s Message to the West By way of Hypersonic Weapons
(17:47) Is There Dialog Occurring Between Russia and the US?
(23:18) How Many… pic.twitter.com/0UkkNjAkhw— Tucker Carlson (@TuckerCarlson) December 5, 2024
Tucker Carlson: Minister Lavrov, thanks for doing this. Do you consider the US and Russia are at struggle with one another proper now?
Sergey Lavrov: I wouldn’t say so. And in any case, this isn’t what we would like. We want to have regular relations with all our neighbors, after all, however usually with all international locations particularly with the good nation like the US. And President Vladimir Putin repeatedly expressed his respect for the American folks, for the American historical past, for the American achievements on this planet, and we don’t see any cause why Russia and the US can not cooperate for the sake of the universe.
Tucker Carlson: However the US is funding a battle that you simply’re concerned in, after all, and now’s permitting assaults on Russia itself. In order that doesn’t represent struggle?
Sergey Lavrov: Nicely, we formally usually are not at struggle. However what’s going on in Ukraine is that some folks name it hybrid struggle. I might name it hybrid struggle as effectively, however it’s apparent that the Ukrainians wouldn’t have the ability to do what they’re doing with long-range fashionable weapons with out direct participation of the American servicemen. And that is harmful, little question about this.
We don’t need to irritate the state of affairs, however since ATACMS and different long-range weapons are getting used towards mainland Russia because it have been, we’re sending alerts. We hope that the final one, a few weeks in the past, the sign with the brand new weapon system known as Oreshnik was taken significantly.
Nevertheless, we additionally know that some officers within the Pentagon and in different places, together with NATO, began saying in the previous few days one thing like that NATO is a defensive alliance, however typically you’ll be able to strike first as a result of the assault is the perfect protection. Some others in STRATCOM, Thomas Buchanan is his title, consultant of STRATCOM, stated one thing which permits for an eventuality of trade of restricted nuclear strikes.
And this sort of threats are actually worrying. As a result of if they’re following the logic which some Westerners have been announcing currently, that don’t consider that Russia has crimson strains, they introduced their crimson strains, these crimson strains are being moved repeatedly. This can be a very severe mistake. That’s what I want to say in response to this query.
It isn’t us who began the struggle. Putin repeatedly stated that we began the particular navy operation with the intention to finish the struggle which Kiev regime was conducting towards its personal folks within the components of Donbass. And simply in his newest assertion, the President Putin clearly indicated that we’re prepared for any eventuality. However we strongly choose peaceable answer by way of negotiations on the premise of respecting official safety curiosity of Russia, and on the premise of respecting the individuals who dwell in Ukraine, who nonetheless dwell in Ukraine being Russians, and their primary human rights, language rights, non secular rights, have been exterminated by a collection of laws handed by the Ukrainian parliament. They began lengthy earlier than the particular navy operation. Since 2017, laws was handed prohibiting Russian schooling in Russian, prohibiting Russian media working in Ukraine, then prohibiting Ukrainian media working in Russian language, and the most recent, after all there have been additionally steps to cancel any cultural occasions in Russian, Russian books have been thrown out of libraries and exterminated. The newest was the legislation prohibiting canonic Orthodox Church, Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
You understand it’s very fascinating when folks within the West say we would like this battle to be resolved on the premise of the UN Constitution and respect for territorial integrity of Ukraine, and Russia should withdraw. The Secretary Basic of the United Nations says related issues. Not too long ago his consultant repeated that the battle have to be resolved on the premise of worldwide legislation, UN Constitution, Basic Meeting resolutions, whereas respecting territorial integrity of Ukraine. It’s a misnomer, as a result of if you wish to respect the United Nations Constitution, it’s important to respect it in its entirety. The United Nations Constitution, amongst different issues, says that every one international locations should respect equality of states and proper of individuals for self-determination. They usually additionally talked about the United Nations Basic Meeting resolutions, and that is clear that what they imply is the collection of resolutions which they handed after the start of this particular navy operation and which demand condemnation of Russia, Russia to get out of Ukraine territory in 1991 borders. However there are different United Nations Basic Meeting resolutions which weren’t voted, however which have been consensual, and amongst them is a Declaration on ideas of relations between states on the premise of the Constitution. And it clearly says, by consensus, everyone should respect territorial integrity of states whose governments respect the precise of individuals for self-determination, and due to that signify all the inhabitants dwelling on a given territory.
To argue that the individuals who got here to energy by way of navy coup d’état in February 2014 represented Crimeans or the residents of jap and southern Ukraine is totally ineffective. It’s apparent that Crimeans rejected the coup. They stated, depart us alone, we don’t need to have something with you. So we did: Donbass, Crimeans held referendum, and so they rejoined Russia. Donbass was declared by the putschists who got here to energy terrorist group. They have been shelled, attacked by artillery. The struggle began, which was stopped in February 2015.
The Minsk agreements have been signed. We have been very sincerely excited about closing this drama by seeing Minsk agreements applied totally. It was sabotaged by the federal government, which was established after the coup d’état in Ukraine. There was a requirement that they enter right into a direct dialogue with the individuals who didn’t settle for the coup. There was a requirement that they promote financial relations with that a part of Ukraine. And so forth and so forth. None of this was achieved.
The folks in Kiev have been saying we might by no means discuss to them immediately. And that is regardless of the truth that the demand to speak to them immediately was endorsed by the Safety Council. And putschists stated they’re terrorists, we might be preventing them, and they might be dying in cellars as a result of we’re stronger.
Had the coup in February 2014 had it not occurred and the deal which was reached the day earlier than between the then president and the opposition applied, Ukraine would have stayed one piece by now with Crimea in it. It’s completely clear. They didn’t ship on the deal. As a substitute they staged the coup. The deal, by the way in which, supplied for creation of a authorities of nationwide unity in February 2014, and holding early elections, which the then president would have misplaced. Everyone knew that. However they have been impatient and took the federal government buildings subsequent morning. They went to this Maidan Sq. and introduced that they created the federal government of the winners. Evaluate the federal government of nationwide unity to organize for elections and the federal government of the winners.
How can the folks whom they, of their view, defeated, how can they faux that they respect the authorities in Kiev? You understand, the precise for self-determination is the worldwide authorized foundation for decolonization course of, which occurred in Africa on the premise of this constitution precept, the precise for self-determination. The folks within the colonies, they by no means handled the colonial powers, colonial masters, as someone who signify them, as someone whom they need to see within the constructions which govern these lands. By the identical token, the folks in east and south of Ukraine, folks in Donbass and Novorossiya, they don’t take into account the Zelensky regime as one thing which represents their pursuits. How can they do this when their tradition, their language, their traditions, their faith, all this was prohibited?
And the final level is that if we converse in regards to the UN Constitution, resolutions, worldwide legislation, the very first article of the UN Constitution, which the West by no means, by no means remembers within the Ukrainian context, says, “Respect human rights of everyone, no matter race, gender, language, or faith.”
Take any battle. The US, UK, Brussels, they’d intervene, saying, “Oh, human rights have been grossly violated. We should restore the human rights in such and such territory.” On Ukraine, by no means, ever they mumbled the phrases “human rights,” seeing these human rights for the Russian and Russian-speaking inhabitants being completely exterminated by legislation. So when folks say, “Let’s resolve the battle on the premise of the Constitution,” – sure. However don’t neglect that the Constitution just isn’t solely about territorial integrity. And territorial integrity have to be revered provided that the governments are official and in the event that they respect the rights of their very own folks.
Tucker Carlson: I need to return to what you stated a second in the past in regards to the introduction or the disclosing of the hypersonic weapons system that you simply stated was a sign to the West. What sign precisely? I feel many Individuals usually are not even conscious that this occurred. What message have been you sending by displaying it to the world?
Sergey Lavrov: Nicely, the message is that you simply, I imply the US, and the allies of the US who additionally present this long-range weapons to the Kiev regime, they need to perceive that we might be prepared to make use of any means to not enable them to achieve what they name strategic defeat of Russia.
They combat for retaining the hegemony over the world on any nation, any area, any continent. We combat for our official safety pursuits. They are saying, for instance, 1991 borders. Lindsey Graham, who visited a while in the past Vladimir Zelensky for one more discuss, he bluntly, in his presence stated that Ukraine could be very wealthy with uncommon earth metals and so they can not depart this richness to the Russians. We should take it. We combat.
In order that they combat for the regime which is able to promote or to offer to the West all of the pure and human assets. We combat for the individuals who have been dwelling on these lands, whose ancestors have been truly growing these lands, constructing cities, constructing factories for hundreds of years and centuries. We care about folks, not about pure assets which someone in the US want to hold and to have Ukrainians simply as servants sitting on these pure assets.
So the message which we wished to ship by testing in actual motion this hypersonic system is that we’ll be able to do something to defend our official pursuits.
We hate even to consider struggle with the US, which can take nuclear character. Our navy doctrine says that a very powerful factor is to keep away from a nuclear struggle. And it was us, by the way in which, who initiated in January 2022 the message, the joint assertion by the leaders of the 5 everlasting members of the Safety Council saying that we’ll do something to keep away from confrontation between us, acknowledging and respecting one another’s safety pursuits and considerations. This was our initiative.
And the safety pursuits of Russia have been completely ignored once they rejected about the identical time the proposal to conclude a treaty on safety ensures for Russia, for Ukraine within the context of coexistence and within the context the place Ukraine wouldn’t be ever member of NATO or some other navy bloc. These safety pursuits of Russia have been introduced to the West, to NATO and to the US in December 2021. We mentioned them a number of instances, together with throughout my assembly with Antony Blinken in Geneva in January 2022. And this was rejected.
So we will surely prefer to keep away from any misunderstanding. And because the folks, some folks in Washington and a few folks in London, in Brussels, gave the impression to be not very succesful to grasp, we are going to ship extra messages in the event that they don’t draw essential conclusions.
Tucker Carlson: The truth that we’re having a dialog a few potential nuclear trade and it’s actual thought I’d ever see.
And it raises the query, how a lot back-channel dialogue is there between Russia and the US? Has there been for the final two and a half years? Is there any dialog ongoing?
Sergey Lavrov: There are a number of channels, however totally on trade of people that serve phrases in Russia and in the US. There have been a number of swaps.
There are additionally channels which aren’t marketed or publicized, however mainly the Individuals ship by way of these channels the identical message which they ship publicly. You need to cease, it’s important to settle for the way in which which will likely be based mostly on the Ukrainian wants and place. They help this totally pointless ‘peace method’ by Vladimir Zelensky, which was additioned just lately by ‘victory plan’. They held a number of collection of conferences, Copenhagen format, Burgenstock. They usually brag that first half of subsequent 12 months they are going to convene one other convention and they’re going to graciously invite Russia that point. After which Russia can be introduced an ultimatum.
All that is significantly repeated by way of varied confidential channels. Now we hear one thing completely different, together with Vladimir Zelensky’s statements that we are able to cease now on the line of engagement, line of contact. The Ukrainian authorities will likely be admitted to NATO, however NATO ensures at this stage would cowl solely the territory managed by the federal government, and the remaining can be topic to negotiations. However the finish results of these negotiations have to be complete withdrawal of Russia from Russian soil, mainly. Leaving Russian folks to the Nazi regime, which exterminated all of the rights of the Russian and Russian-speaking residents of their very own nation.
Tucker Carlson: If I may simply return to the query of nuclear trade. So there isn’t a mechanism by which the leaders of Russia and the US can converse to one another to keep away from the sort of misunderstanding that would kill tons of of thousands and thousands of individuals.
Sergey Lavrov: No. We’ve this channel which is routinely engaged when ballistic missile launch is happening.
As regards this Oreshnik hypersonic mid-range ballistic missile. half-hour prematurely the system despatched the message to the US. They knew that this was the case and that they don’t mistake it for something larger and actual harmful.
Tucker Carlson: I feel the system sounds very harmful.
Sergey Lavrov: Nicely, it was a take a look at launch, you recognize.
Tucker Carlson: Sure. Oh, you’re talking of the take a look at, okay. However I simply surprise how anxious you might be that, contemplating there doesn’t appear to be a variety of dialog between the 2 international locations. Either side are talking about exterminating the opposite’s populations. That this might by some means get uncontrolled in a really brief interval and nobody may cease it. It appears extremely reckless.
Sergey Lavrov: No, we’re not speaking about exterminating anyone’s inhabitants. We didn’t begin this struggle. We’ve been, for years and years and years, sending warnings that pushing NATO nearer and nearer to our borders goes to create an issue.
In 2007, Putin began to clarify to the individuals who gave the impression to be overtaken by the ‘finish of historical past’ and being dominant, no problem, and so forth and so forth.
And naturally, when the coup occurred, the Individuals didn’t cover that they have been behind it. There’s a dialog between Victoria Nuland and the then American ambassador in Kiev once they talk about personalities to be included within the new authorities after the coup. The determine of $5 billion spent on Ukraine after independence was talked about because the assure that the whole lot can be just like the Individuals need.
So we don’t have any intention to exterminate Ukrainian folks. They’re brothers and sisters to the Russian folks.
Tucker Carlson: What number of have died thus far, do you suppose, on either side?
Sergey Lavrov: It isn’t disclosed by Ukrainians. Vladimir Zelensky was saying that it’s a lot lower than 80,000 individuals on Ukrainian facet.
However there may be one very dependable determine. In Palestine throughout one 12 months after the Israelis began their operation in response to this terrorist assault, which we condemned. And this operation, after all, acquired the proportion of collective punishment, which is towards worldwide humanitarian legislation as effectively. So throughout one 12 months after the operation began in Palestine, the variety of Palestinian civilians killed is estimated at 45,000. That is virtually twice as many because the variety of civilians on either side of Ukrainian battle who died throughout ten years after the coup. One 12 months and ten years. So it’s a tragedy in Ukraine. It’s a catastrophe in Palestine, however we by no means, ever had as our purpose killing folks.
And the Ukrainian regime did. The top of the workplace of Vladimir Zelensky as soon as stated that we’ll make it possible for cities like Kharkov, Nikolaev will neglect what Russian means in any respect. One other man in his workplace acknowledged that Ukrainians should exterminate Russians by way of legislation or, if essential, bodily. Ukrainian former ambassador to Kazakhstan Pyotr Vrublevsky turned well-known when giving an interview and looking out into the digicam (being recorded and broadcast) he stated: ”Our predominant process is to kill as many Russians as we are able to in order that our kids have much less issues to do”. And statements like this are all around the vocabulary of the regime.
Tucker Carlson: What number of Russians in Russia have been killed since February of 2022?
Sergey Lavrov: It’s not for me to reveal this info. Within the time of navy operations particular guidelines exist. Our ministry of protection follows these guidelines.
However there’s a very fascinating undeniable fact that when Vladimir Zelensky was enjoying not in worldwide enviornment, however at his comedy membership or no matter it’s known as, he was (there are movies from that interval) bluntly defending the Russian language. He was saying: “What’s incorrect with Russian language? I converse Russian. Russians are our neighbors. Russian is one among our languages”. And get misplaced, he stated, to those that wished to assault the Russian language and Russian tradition. When Vladimir Zelensky turned president, he modified very quick.
Earlier than the navy operation, in September 2021, he was interviewed, and at the moment he was conducting struggle towards Donbass in violation of the Minsk agreements. And the interviewer requested him what he thought in regards to the folks on the opposite facet of the road of contact. He answered very thoughtfully there are folks and there are species. And should you, dwelling in Ukraine, really feel related to the Russian tradition, my recommendation to you, for the sake of your youngsters, for the sake of your grandkids, get out to Russia.
And if this man needs to carry Russians and folks of Russian tradition again beneath his territorial integrity, I imply, it reveals that he’s not enough.
Tucker Carlson: So, what are the phrases beneath which Russia would stop hostilities? What are you asking for?
Sergey Lavrov: Ten years in the past, in February 2014, we have been asking just for the deal between the president and the opposition to have authorities of nationwide unity, to carry early elections, to be applied. The deal was signed. And we have been asking for the implementation of this deal. They have been completely impatient and aggressive. They usually have been, after all, pushed, I’ve no slightest doubt, by the Individuals, as a result of if Victoria Nuland and the U.S. ambassador agreed the composition of the federal government, why look forward to 5 months to carry early elections?
The following time we have been in favor of one thing was when the Minsk Agreements have been signed. I used to be there. The negotiations lasted for 17 hours (effectively, Crimea was misplaced by that point due to referendum). And no person, together with my colleague John Kerry, assembly with us, no person within the West was fear in regards to the challenge of Crimea. Everyone was targeting Donbass. And the Minsk Agreements supplied for territorial integrity of Ukraine, minus Crimea (this was not even raised) and a particular standing for a really tiny a part of Donbass, not for all the Donbass, not for Novorossiya in any respect. A part of Donbass, beneath these Minsk Agreements, endorsed by the Safety Council, ought to have the precise to talk Russian language, to show Russian language, to check in Russian, to have native legislation enforcement (like within the states of U.S.), to be consulted when judges and prosecutors are appointed by the central authority, and to have some facilitated financial connections with neighboring areas of Russia. That’s it. One thing which President Macron promised to offer to Corsica and nonetheless is contemplating how to do that.
And when these agreements have been sabotaged all alongside by Piotr Poroshenko after which by Vladimir Zelensky. Each of them, by the way in which, got here to presidency, operating on the promise of peace. And each of them lied. So when these Minsk Agreements have been sabotaged to the extent that we noticed the makes an attempt to take this tiny a part of Donbass by power, and we, as President Putin defined, at the moment, we urged these safety preparations to NATO and the US, which was rejected. And when the Plan B was launched by Ukraine and its sponsors, attempting to take this a part of Donbass by power, it was then that we launched the particular navy operation.
Had they applied the Minsk Agreements Ukraine can be one piece, minus Crimea. However even then, when Ukrainians, after we began the operation, urged to barter, we agreed, there have been a number of rounds in Belarus, and one later they moved to Istanbul. And in Istanbul, Ukrainian delegation put a paper on the desk saying: “These are the ideas on which we’re able to agree.” And we accepted these ideas.
Tucker Carlson: The Minsk Rules?
Sergey Lavrov: No. The Istanbul Rules. It was April 2022.
Tucker Carlson: Proper.
Sergey Lavrov: Which was: no NATO, however safety ensures to Ukraine, collectively supplied with the participation of Russia. And these safety ensures wouldn’t cowl Crimea or the east of Ukraine. It was their proposal. And it was initialed. And the top of the Ukrainian delegation in Istanbul, who’s now the chair of the Vladimir Zelensky faction within the parliament, he just lately (just a few months in the past) in an interview, confirmed that this was the case. And on the premise of those ideas, we have been able to draft a treaty.
However then this gentleman who headed the Ukrainian delegation in Istanbul stated that Boris Johnson visited and instructed them to proceed to combat. Then there was…
Tucker Carlson: However Boris Johnson, on behalf of…
Sergey Lavrov: He stated no. However the man who initialed the paper, he stated it was Boris Johnson. Different folks say it was President Putin who ruined the deal due to the bloodbath in Bucha. However they by no means talked about any extra bloodbath in Bucha. I do. And we do.
In a way, they’re on the defensive. A number of instances within the United Nations Safety Council, sitting on the desk with Antonio Guterres, I (final 12 months and this 12 months) on the Basic Meeting, I raised the problem of Bucha and stated, guys, it’s unusual that you’re silent about Bucha since you have been very vocal when BBC staff discovered itself on the road the place the our bodies have been situated. I inquired, can we get the names of the individuals whose our bodies have been broadcast by BBC? Whole silence. I addressed Antonio Guterres personally within the presence of the Safety Council members. He didn’t reply. Then at my press convention in New York after the top of the Basic Meeting final September, I requested all of the correspondents: guys, you might be journalists. Perhaps you’re not an investigative journalists however journalists usually have an interest to get the reality. And Bucha factor, which was performed all around the media retailers condemning Russia, just isn’t of any curiosity to anybody – politicians, UN officers. And now even journalists. I requested after I talked to them in September, please, as skilled folks, attempt to get the names of these whose our bodies have been proven in Bucha. No reply.
Similar to we don’t have any reply to the query, the place is the outcomes of medical evaluation of Alexey Navalny, who died just lately, however who was handled in Germany within the fall of 2020. When he fell dangerous on a aircraft over Russia, the aircraft landed. He was handled by the Russian docs in Siberia. Then the Germans wished to take him. We instantly allowed the aircraft to come back. They took him. In lower than 24 hours, he was in Germany. After which the Germans continued to say that we poisoned him. And now the evaluation confirmed that he was poisoned. We requested for the take a look at outcomes to be given to us. They stated, no, we give it to the group on chemical weapons. We went to this group, we’re members, and we stated, are you able to present to us, as a result of that is our citizen, we’re accused of getting poisoned him. They stated that the Germans instructed us to not give it to you. They discovered nothing within the civilian hospital, and the announcement that he was poisoned was made after he was handled within the navy Bundeswehr hospital. So plainly this secret just isn’t going…
Tucker Carlson: So how did Navalny die?
Sergey Lavrov: Nicely, he died serving the time period in Russia. So far as it was reported, once in a while he felt not effectively. Which was one more reason why we continued to ask the Germans: are you able to present us the outcomes which you discovered? As a result of we didn’t discover what they discovered. And what they did to him, I don’t know.
Tucker Carlson: What the Germans did to him?
Sergey Lavrov: Yeah, as a result of they don’t clarify to anyone, together with us. Or perhaps they clarify to the Individuals. Perhaps that is credible.
However they by no means instructed us how they handled him, what they discovered, and what strategies they have been utilizing.
Tucker Carlson: How do you suppose he died?
Sergey Lavrov: I’m not a health care provider. However for anyone to guess, even for the docs to attempt to guess, they should have info. And if the individual was taken to Germany to be handled after he had been poisoned, the outcomes of the assessments can’t be secret.
We nonetheless can not get something credible on the destiny of Skripals – Sergei Skripal and his daughter. The knowledge just isn’t supplied to us. He’s our citizen, she is our citizen. We’ve all of the rights and the conventions which the UK is occasion to, to get info.
Tucker Carlson: Why do you suppose that Boris Johnson, former Prime Minister of the UK, would have stopped the peace course of in Istanbul? On whose behalf was he doing that?
Sergey Lavrov: Nicely, I met with him a few instances, and I wouldn’t be shocked if he was motivated by some speedy want or by some long-term technique. He isn’t very predictable.
Tucker Carlson: However do you suppose he was performing on behalf of the U.S. authorities, on behalf of the Biden administration, or he was doing this independently.
Sergey Lavrov: I don’t know. And I wouldn’t guess. The truth that the Individuals and the Brits are main on this “state of affairs” is apparent.
Now it’s changing into additionally clear that there’s a fatigue in some capitals, and there are talks once in a while that the Individuals want to depart it with the Europeans and to focus on one thing extra vital. I wouldn’t guess.
We might be judging by particular steps. It’s apparent, although, that the Biden administration want to depart a legacy to the Trump administration as dangerous as they’ll.
And just like what Barack Obama did to Donald Trump throughout his first time period. Then late December 2016, President Obama expelled Russian diplomats. Simply very late December. 120 individuals with members of the family. Did it on goal. Demanded them depart on the day when there was no direct flight from Washington to Moscow. In order that they needed to transfer to New York by buses with all their baggage, with youngsters, and so forth and so forth.
And on the similar time, President Obama introduced the arrest of items of diplomatic property of Russia. And we nonetheless by no means have been in a position to come and see what’s the state of this Russian property.
Tucker Carlson: What was the property?
Sergey Lavrov: Diplomatic. They by no means allowed us to come back and see it although beneath all conventions. They only say that these items we don’t take into account as being coated by diplomatic immunity, which is a unilateral choice, by no means substantiated by any worldwide courtroom.
Tucker Carlson: So that you consider the Biden administration is doing one thing related once more to the incoming Trump administration.
Sergey Lavrov: As a result of that episode with the expulsion and the seizure of property definitely didn’t create the promising floor for starting of our relationships with the Trump administration. So I feel they’re doing the identical.
Tucker Carlson: However this time President Trump was elected on the express promise to carry an finish to the struggle in Ukraine. So I imply, he stated that in look after look. So on condition that, there may be hope for a decision, it appears like. What are the phrases to which you’d agree?
Sergey Lavrov: Nicely, the phrases, I mainly alluded to them. When President Putin spoke on this Ministry of International Affaires on the 14th of June he as soon as once more reiterated that we have been prepared to barter on the premise of the ideas which have been agreed in Istanbul and rejected by Boris Johnson, in response to the assertion of the top of the Ukrainian delegation.
The important thing precept is non-block standing of Ukraine. And we might be able to be a part of the group of nations who would offer collective safety ensures to Ukraine.
Tucker Carlson: However no NATO?
Sergey Lavrov: No NATO. Completely. No navy bases, no navy workouts on the Ukrainian soil with participation of overseas troops. And that is one thing which he reiterated. However after all, he stated, it was April 2022, now a while has handed, and the realities on the bottom must be taken into consideration and accepted.
The realities on the bottom usually are not solely the road of contact, but additionally the adjustments within the Russian Structure after referendum was held in Donetsk, Lugansk republics and Kherson and Zaporozhye areas. And they’re now a part of the Russian Federation, in response to the Structure. And this can be a actuality.
And naturally, we can not tolerate a deal which might hold the laws that are prohibiting Russian language, Russian media, Russian tradition, Ukrainian Orthodox Church, as a result of it’s a violation of the obligations of Ukraine beneath the UN Constitution, and one thing have to be achieved about it. And the truth that the West (since this russophobic legislative offensive began in 2017) was completely silent and it’s silent till now, after all we must take note of this in a really particular approach.
Tucker Carlson: Would sanctions towards Russia be a situation?
Sergey Lavrov: You understand, I might say most likely many individuals in Russia want to make it a situation. However the extra we dwell beneath sanctions, the extra we perceive that it’s higher to depend on your self, and to develop mechanisms, platforms for cooperation with ‘regular’ international locations who usually are not unfriendly to you, and don’t combine financial pursuits and insurance policies and particularly politics. And we discovered quite a bit after the sanctions began.
The sanctions began beneath President Obama. They continued in a really huge approach beneath the primary time period of Donald Trump. And these sanctions beneath the Biden administration are completely unprecedented.
However what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, you recognize. They might by no means kill us, so they’re making us stronger.
Tucker Carlson: And driving Russia east. And so the imaginative and prescient that I feel similar policymakers in Washington had 20 years in the past is why to not carry Russia right into a Western bloc, type of as a stability towards the rising east. But it surely doesn’t look like that. Do you suppose that’s nonetheless potential?
Sergey Lavrov: I don’t suppose so. When just lately President Putin was talking at Valdai Membership to politologists and consultants, he stated we might by no means be again on the state of affairs of early 2022. That’s when he realized (for himself, apparently, not solely he, however he spoke publicly about this) that every one makes an attempt to be on equal phrases with the West have failed.
It began after the demise of the Soviet Union. There was euphoria, we are actually a part of the ‘liberal world’, democratic world, ‘finish of historical past’. However very quickly it turned clear to a lot of the Russians that within the Nineteen Nineties we have been handled as – at greatest as junior accomplice, perhaps not whilst a accomplice, – however as a spot the place the West can set up issues prefer it needs, hanging offers with oligarchs, shopping for assets and belongings. After which most likely the Individuals determined that Russia is of their pocket. Boris Yeltsin, Invoice Clinton, buddies, laughing, joking.
However even on the finish of Boris Yeltsin’s time period, he began to ponder that this was not one thing he wished for Russia. And I feel this was very apparent when he appointed Vladimir Putin prime minister, after which left earlier, and blessed Vladimir Putin as his successor for the elections which have been coming and which Putin gained.
However when Vladimir Putin turned president, he was very a lot open to cooperation with the West. And he mentions about this fairly commonly when he speaks with interviewers or at some worldwide occasions.
I used to be current when he met with George Bush Jr., with Barack Obama. Nicely, after the assembly of NATO in Bucharest, which was adopted by NATO-Russia summit assembly in 2008, once they introduced that Georgia and Ukraine will likely be in NATO. After which they tried to promote it to us. We requested: why? There was lunch and President Putin requested what was making this? Good query. They usually stated that is one thing which isn’t compulsory. How come?
Nicely to begin the method of becoming a member of NATO, you want a proper invitation. And this can be a slogan – Ukraine and Georgia will likely be in NATO. However this slogan turned obsession for some folks in Tbilisi first, when Mikhail Saakashvili misplaced his senses and began the struggle towards his personal folks beneath the safety of OSCE mission with the Russian peacekeepers on the bottom. And the truth that he launched this was confirmed by the European Union investigation, which they launched and which concluded that he gave the order to begin.
And for Ukrainians, it took a bit longer. They have been cultivating this pro-Western temper. Nicely, pro-Western just isn’t dangerous, mainly. Professional-Jap can also be not dangerous. What’s dangerous is that you simply inform folks, both/or, both you go along with me otherwise you’re my enemy.
What occurred earlier than the coup in Ukraine? In 2013, the president of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych negotiated with the European Union some affiliation settlement which might nullify tariffs on a lot of the Ukrainian items to the European Union and the opposite approach round. And in some unspecified time in the future, when he was assembly with Russian counterparts, we instructed him, Ukraine was a part of the free commerce space of the Commonwealth of Unbiased States. No tariffs for everyone. And we, Russia, negotiated settlement with World Commerce Group for some 17 years, largely as a result of we bargained with European Union. And we achieved some safety for a lot of of our sectors, agriculture and a few others. We defined to the Ukrainians that should you go zero in your commerce with European Union, we must shield our customs border with Ukraine. In any other case the zero tariff European items would flood and can be hurting our industries, which we tried to guard and agreed for some safety. And we urged to the European Union: guys, Ukraine is our frequent neighbor. You need to have higher commerce with Ukraine. We would like the identical. Ukraine need to have markets each in Europe and in Russia. Why don’t we sit three of us and talk about it like grownups? The top of the European Fee was the Portuguese José Manuel Barroso. He responded it’s none of your small business what we do with Ukraine. We, for instance, the European Union, we don’t ask you to debate with us your commerce with Canada. Completely conceited reply.
After which the president of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych convened his consultants. They usually stated, sure, it could be not superb if we have now opened the border with European Union, however the customs border with Russia can be closed. And they’d be checking, you recognize, what’s coming. In order that the Russian market just isn’t affected.
So he introduced in November 2013 that he can not signal the deal instantly, and he requested the European Union to postpone it for till subsequent 12 months. That was the set off for Maidan, which was instantly thrown up and ended by the coup.
So my level is that this both/or. Really, the primary coup occurred in 2004, when after second spherical of elections, the identical Viktor Yanukovych gained presidency. The West raised hell and put stress on the Constitutional Courtroom of Ukraine to rule that there have to be a 3rd spherical. The Structure of Ukraine says there could also be solely two rounds. However the Constitutional Courtroom, beneath the stress of the West, violated the Structure for the primary time then. And pro-Western candidate was chosen. At the moment, when all this was happening and boiling, the European leaders have been publicly saying Ukrainian folks should determine: are they with us or with Russia?
Tucker Carlson: However it’s the approach that huge international locations behave. I imply, there are specific orbits, and now it’s BRICS versus NATO, U.S. versus China. And it sounds such as you’re saying the Russian-Chinese language alliance is everlasting.
Sergey Lavrov: Nicely, we’re neighbors. And naturally geography is essential.
Tucker Carlson: However you’re additionally neighbors with Western Europe. And also you’re a part of it, in impact.
Sergey Lavrov: By way of Ukraine the Western Europe needs to come back to our borders.
And there have been plans that have been mentioned virtually overtly to place British naval bases on the Sea of Azov. Crimea was eyed. Dreaming about creating NATO base in Crimea and so forth and so forth.
Look, we have now been very pleasant with Finland, for instance. In a single day, the Finns got here again to the early years of preparation for World Battle II once they have been greatest allies of Hitler. And all this neutrality, all this friendship, going to sauna collectively, enjoying hockey collectively, all this disappeared in a single day. So perhaps this was deep of their hearts, and the neutrality was burdening them, and niceties have been burdening for them. I don’t know.
Tucker Carlson: They’re mad in regards to the ‘winter struggle’. That’s completely potential.
Are you able to negotiate with Zelensky? You’ve identified that he has exceeded his time period. He’s not democratically elected president of Ukraine anymore. So do you take into account him an acceptable accomplice for negotiations?
Sergey Lavrov: President Putin addressed many instances this challenge as effectively. In September 2022, through the first 12 months of the particular navy operation, Vladimir Zelensky, in his conviction that he can be dictating the phrases of the state of affairs additionally to the West, he signed a decree prohibiting any negotiations with Putin’s authorities.
Throughout public occasions after that episode, President Vladimir Putin is requested why Russia just isn’t prepared for negotiations. He stated, don’t flip it the other way up. We’re prepared for negotiations, supplied it will likely be based mostly on the stability of curiosity, -tomorrow. However Vladimir Zelensky signed this decree prohibiting negotiations. For starters, why don’t you inform him to cancel it publicly? This will likely be a sign that he needs negotiations. As a substitute, Vladimir Zelensky invented his ‘peace method’. Recently, it was complemented by a ‘victory plan’. They hold saying, we all know what they are saying once they meet with European Union ambassadors and in different codecs, they are saying no deal except the deal is on our phrases.
I discussed to you that they’re planning now the second summit on the premise of this peace method, and so they don’t shrink back from saying, we are going to invite Russia to place in entrance of it the deal which we agreed already with the West.
When our Western colleagues typically say nothing about Ukraine with out Ukraine in impact, this means that something about Russia with out Russia. As a result of they talk about what sort of situations we should settle for.
By the way in which, just lately they already violated, tacitly, the idea nothing about Ukraine with out Ukraine. There are passes, there are messages. They know our place. We aren’t enjoying double recreation. What President Putin introduced is the purpose of our operation. It’s honest. It’s totally in step with the United Nations Constitution. To start with, the rights: language rights, minority rights, nationwide minority rights, non secular rights, and it’s totally in step with OSCE ideas.
There may be an Group for Safety and Cooperation in Europe which continues to be alive. And effectively, a number of summits of this group clearly acknowledged that safety have to be indivisible, that no person ought to broaden his safety on the expense of safety of others, and that, most vital, no group in Euro-Atlantic area shall declare dominance. This was final time it was confirmed by OSCE in 2010.
NATO was doing precisely the other. So we have now legitimacy in our place. No NATO on our doorsteps as a result of OSCE agreed that this shouldn’t be the case if it hurts us. And please restore the rights of Russians.
Tucker Carlson: Who do you suppose has been making overseas coverage choices in the US? This can be a query in the US. Who’s making these choices?
Sergey Lavrov: I wouldn’t guess. I haven’t seen Antony Blinken for years. When it was the final time? Two years in the past, I feel, on the G20 summit. Was it in Rome or someplace? Within the margins. I used to be representing President Putin there. His assistant got here as much as me throughout a gathering and stated that Antony needs to speak only for 10 minutes. I left the room. We shook fingers, and he stated one thing about the necessity to de-escalate and so forth and so forth. I hope he’s not going to be indignant with me since I’m disclosing this. However we have been assembly in entrance of many individuals current within the room, and I stated, “We don’t need to escalate. You need to inflict strategic defeat upon Russia.” He stated, “No. It isn’t strategic defeat globally. It’s only in Ukraine.”
Tucker Carlson: You’ve not spoken to him since?
Sergey Lavrov: No.
Tucker Carlson: Have you ever spoken to any officers within the Biden administration since then?
Sergey Lavrov: I don’t need to break their profession.
Tucker Carlson: However have you ever had significant conversations?
Sergey Lavrov: No. Under no circumstances.
After I met in worldwide occasions one or one other individual whom I do know, an American, a few of them say hiya, a few of them trade just a few phrases, however I by no means impose myself.
It’s changing into contagious when someone sees an American speaking to me or a European speaking to me. Europeans are operating away once they see me. Over the last G20 assembly, it was ridiculous. Grown-up folks, mature folks. They behave like youngsters. So infantile. Unbelievable.
Tucker Carlson: So that you stated that when in 2016, in December, the ultimate moments of the Biden administration, Biden made the connection between the US and Russia tougher.
Sergey Lavrov: Obama. Biden was vice-president.
Tucker Carlson: Precisely. I’m so sorry.
The Obama administration left a bunch of bombs, mainly, for the incoming Trump administration.
Within the final month because the election, you have got all kinds of issues happening politically in bordering states on this area. In Georgia, in Belarus, in Romania, after which, after all, most dramatically in Syria, you have got turmoil.
Does this look like a part of an effort by the US to make the decision tougher?
Sergey Lavrov: There may be nothing new, frankly. As a result of the U.S., traditionally, in overseas coverage, was motivated by making some bother after which to see if they’ll fish within the muddy water.
Iraqi aggression, Libyan journey – ruining the state, mainly. Fleeing from Afghanistan. Now attempting to get again by way of the again door, utilizing the United Nations to prepare some ‘occasion’ the place the U.S. might be current, regardless of the truth that they left Afghanistan in very dangerous form and arrested cash and don’t need to give it again.
I feel that is, should you analyze the American overseas coverage steps, adventures, most of them are the precise phrase – the sample. They create some bother, after which they see use it.
When the OSCE displays elections, when it used to observe elections in Russia, they’d at all times be very unfavorable, and in different international locations as effectively, Belarus, Kazakhstan. This time, in Georgia, the monitoring mission of OSCE introduced a constructive report. And it’s being ignored.
So whenever you want endorsement of the procedures, you do it whenever you just like the outcomes of the election. For those who don’t just like the outcomes of elections, you ignore it.
It’s like when the US and different Western international locations acknowledged unilateral declaration of independence of Kosovo, they stated that is the self-determination being applied. There was no referendum in Kosovo – unilateral declaration of independence. By the way in which, after that the Serbs approached Worldwide Courtroom of Justice, which dominated that (effectively, usually they don’t seem to be very particular of their judgment, however they dominated) that when a part of a territory declares independence, it’s not essentially to be agreed with the central authorities.
And when just a few years later, Crimeans have been holding referendum with invitation of many worldwide observers, not from worldwide organizations, however from parliamentarians in Europe, in Asia, in post-Soviet area, they stated, no, we can not settle for this as a result of that is violation of territorial integrity.
You understand, you choose and select. The UN Constitution just isn’t a menu. You need to respect it in all its entirety.
Tucker Carlson: So who’s paying the rebels who’ve taken components of Aleppo? Is the Assad authorities at risk of falling? What is going on precisely, in your view, in Syria?
Sergey Lavrov: Nicely, we had a deal when this disaster began. We organized the Astana course of (Russia, Turkey and Iran). We meet commonly. One other assembly is being deliberate earlier than the top of the 12 months or early subsequent 12 months, to debate the state of affairs on the bottom.
The principles of the sport are to assist Syrians to come back to phrases with one another and to forestall separatist threats from getting robust. That’s what the Individuals are doing within the east of Syria once they groom some Kurdish separatists utilizing the income from oil and grain bought, the assets which they occupy.
This Astana format is a helpful mixture of gamers, if you want. We’re very a lot involved. And when this occurred, with Aleppo and environment, I had a dialog with the Turkish minister of overseas affairs and with Iranian colleague. We agreed to attempt to meet this week. Hopefully in Doha on the margins of this worldwide convention. We want to talk about the necessity to come again to strict implementation of the offers on Idlib space, as a result of Idlib de-escalation zone was the place from the place the terrorists moved to take Aleppo. The preparations reached in 2019 and 2020 supplied for our Turkish associates to regulate the state of affairs within the Idlib de-escalation zone and to separate the Hayat Tahrir al-Sham (former Nusra) from the opposition, which is non-terrorist and which cooperates with Turkey.
And one other deal was the opening of M5 route from Damascus to Aleppo, which can also be now taken utterly by the terrorists. So we, as ministers of overseas affairs, would talk about the state of affairs, hopefully, this coming Friday. And the navy of all three international locations and the safety persons are in touch with one another.
Tucker Carlson: However the Islamist teams, the terrorists you simply described, who’s backing them?
Sergey Lavrov: Nicely, we have now some info. We want to talk about with all our companions on this course of the way in which to chop the channels of financing and arming them.
The knowledge which is being floated and it’s within the public area mentions amongst others the Individuals, the Brits. Some folks say that Israel is excited about making this case irritate. In order that Gaza just isn’t beneath very shut scrutiny. It’s a sophisticated recreation. Many actors are concerned. I hope that the context which we’re planning for this week will assist stabilize the state of affairs.
Tucker Carlson: What do you consider Donald Trump?
Sergey Lavrov: I met him a number of instances when he was having conferences with President Putin and when he obtained me twice within the Oval Workplace after I was visiting for bilateral talks.
Nicely, I feel he’s a really robust individual. An individual who needs outcomes. Who doesn’t like procrastination on something. That is my impression. He’s very pleasant in discussions. However this doesn’t imply that he’s pro-Russian as some folks attempt to current him. The quantity of sanctions we obtained beneath the Trump administration was very huge.
We respect any selection which is made by the folks once they vote. We respect the selection of American folks. As President Putin stated, we’re and we have now been open all alongside to the contacts with the present administration. We hope that when Donald Trump is inaugurated, we are going to perceive. The ball, as President Putin stated, is on their facet. We by no means severed our contacts, our ties within the financial system, commerce, safety, something.
Tucker Carlson: My closing query is: how sincerely anxious are you about an escalation in battle between Russia and the US, figuring out what you do?
Sergey Lavrov: Nicely, we began with this query, roughly.
Tucker Carlson: It appears the central query.
Sergey Lavrov: Sure. The Europeans whisper to one another that it’s not for Vladimir Zelensky to dictate the phrases of the deal – it’s for the U.S. and Russia.
I don’t suppose we ought to be presenting our relationships as two guys determine for everyone. Under no circumstances. It isn’t our model.
We choose the manners which dominate in BRICS, in Shanghai Cooperation Group, the place the UN Constitution precept of sovereign equality of states is admittedly embodied.
The U.S. just isn’t used to respect sovereign equality of states. When the U.S. says we can not enable Russia to win on Ukraine as a result of this may undermine our rules-based world order. And rules-based world order is American domination.
Now, by the way in which, NATO, a minimum of beneath Biden administration, is eyeing all the Eurasian continent, Indo-Pacific methods, South China Sea, East China Sea, is already on NATO agenda. NATO is transferring infrastructure there. AUKUS, constructing ‘quartet’ Indo-Pacific 4 as they name it (Japan, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea). U.S., South Korea, and Japan are constructing navy alliance with some nuclear elements. And Jens Stoltenberg, the previous Secretary Basic of NATO, final 12 months after the summit he stated that the Euro-Atlantic safety is indivisible from Indo-Pacific safety. When he was requested does it imply that you simply transcend territorial protection, he answered – no, it doesn’t transcend territorial protection, however to defend our territory, we have to be current there. This ingredient of preemption is increasingly current.
We don’t need struggle with anyone. And as I stated, 5 nuclear states declared on the high degree in January 2022 that we don’t need confrontation with one another and that we will respect one another’s safety pursuits and considerations. And it additionally acknowledged nuclear struggle can by no means be gained, and due to this fact nuclear struggle just isn’t potential.
And the identical was reiterated bilaterally between Russia and the US, Putin-Biden, once they met in 2021 in Geneva in June. Mainly, they reproduced the assertion by Reagan-Gorbachev of 1987 ‘no nuclear struggle’. And that is completely in our important curiosity, and we hope that that is additionally in important curiosity of the US.
I say so as a result of a while in the past John Kirby, who’s the White Home communications coordinator, was answering questions on escalation and about chance of nuclear weapons being employed. And he stated, “Oh, no, we don’t need escalation as a result of then if there may be some nuclear ingredient, then our European allies would endure.” So even mentally, he excludes that the US can endure. And that is one thing which makes the state of affairs a bit dangerous. It would – if this mentality prevails, then some reckless steps can be taken, and that is dangerous.
Tucker Carlson: What you’re saying is American coverage makers think about there might be a nuclear trade that doesn’t immediately have an effect on the US, and also you’re saying that’s not true.
Sergey Lavrov: That’s what I stated, sure. However professionals in deterrence, nuclear deterrence coverage, they know very effectively that it’s a really harmful recreation. And to talk about restricted trade of nuclear strikes is an invite to catastrophe, which we don’t need to have.
